‘Shōgun’ Star Anna Sawai Says Lady Mariko’s Failed Castle Escape Came with a Sense of ‘Liberation’

Welcome to My Favorite Scene ! In this series, IndieWire speaks to actors behind a few of our favorite television performances about their personal-best onscreen moment and how it came together.

'Scavengers Reign' Has Been a Rule Breaker All Along

“Shōgun” star Anna Sawai will readily admit that watching herself on screen is not her favorite pastime. “Actors have this all the time, but they see little things that they wish they could change,” said the current Outstanding Lead Actress in a Limited or Anthology Series or Movie Emmy nominee to IndieWire over Zoom, while discussing how she determined which of her scenes in the hit FX series is her favorite.

Anyone who has seen the latest adaptation of James Clavell’s 1975 novel, created by Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo, and leading Emmy nominations this year with 25 nods, could probably guess Sawai would choose something from the penultimate episode “Crimson Sky,” in which she gives a tour-de-force performance as Lady Mariko. But the specific sequence she chooses, in which her character makes a show of trying to leave the royal castle on the order of her Lord Toranaga (Hiroyuki Sanada) in order to prove that Lord Ishido (Takehiro Hira) and Lady Ochiba (Fumi Nikaidô), is more unconventional than her more often quoted moments within the fan favorite episode.

“The way that they edited this scene, whenever I see it still, it gets me really emotional. And I think it’s because I still feel that emotional stuff that Mariko was going through,” said the actress. “Even though it’s such an emotional scene and it doesn’t end peacefully, there was so much clarity within me going into it, and also finishing it. And that’s exactly what the character is doing, because yes, she is physically defeated. But I don’t know if people catch this, when she’s walking back, there’s a slight change in her expression, and that’s because this was all meant to happen. And it’s only Toranaga-sama and herself who know that this is part of the plan. And so there’s that liberation and clarity. And that was what I was going through, so it didn’t feel as daunting as it may seem.”

Below, Sawai breaks down all the elements that went into the tortured Mariko finally reaching a state of fulfillment at violent costs, and shares thoughts on if there is more to mine from the tragic character’s story in future seasons of “Shōgun,” given how the series renewal came as a surprise to her. “This one was supposed to be a limited [series], and they were like, ‘Scratch that. We’re actually going to do two more,’” she said with a smile. “Honestly, it’s a testament to how amazing of a job that they did in Season 1.”

The following interview has been condensed for length and clarity.

IndieWire: To start, did you all shoot the show sequentially? Was this courtyard scene filmed toward the end?

Anna Sawai: Generally speaking, Shōgun was shot block by block, so it was one and two first, three and four next— And so I had experienced all of eight episodes before we were doing nine and 10 (which 10 I’m barely a part of.) We were just focusing on the last bit, and it really helped me because I knew her journey. I lived in it. And also while we were shooting nine, we weren’t shooting my very last scene on a random day. My very last scene was my very last day. And I can’t remember what was going on in between, but I’m pretty sure we had already shot quite a few scenes from the first half before shooting leaving the castle with the sword.

And so, it sounds intense, and I’m sure that it was an intense three, four weeks. I don’t know how much time we spent on this episode, but it really helped with creating the character because now I am declaring myself in front of Ishido and then I’m going to the priest Alvito, I’m going to Ochiba and saying my goodbye. It all really built it up as I was going into the final moments.

Earlier in the episode in which this scene takes place, we see a normally restrained Mariko metaphorically take her mask off, being openly defiant toward the council, but in this scene it is kind of on again, with her going through the motions to prove a point?

Right, she’s a woman who has been silent for eight episodes. And she comes into episode nine in front of the council and verbally tells them what she’s going to do, which is already a surprise because she’s not someone who has ever really spoken up about this kind of stuff. And then in the next scene we see her physically trying to go through. It was just adding up. It was another layer of what she was saying that she was going to do, but actually showcasing it. And it almost sounds like a superwoman, but I loved that we didn’t want to chase after that. Our intent for that scene was to make it as realistic as possible. She was going to fight the men that were blocking her, but it was never going to feel [Pauses]. I remember when the trailer came out, I was reading the comments and people were like, “There’s no way that she can go through. What is this bullshit?” And I was like, “You have to see the end,” because it’s not going to end the way that people think. Yes, that was her physical response to it, but it also ends with defeat. But it’s almost more powerful than ever because she is still making a statement and she’s making a choice to go back and to take her own life afterwards.

Though this sequence moves slower and with intent, I wonder was it all treated like an action sequence? Was there choreography and stunt work? We see these arrows being shot at her ankles. Were you actually experiencing that?

Oh, imagine. I would be so freaked out. No, for the arrows, it was very technical. I would do my steps one by one knowing that there was probably going to be an arrow in post-production. And then we would do another take where the arrows were already stuck in the ground, and then I would just walk through it. Nothing was dangerous. But it’s a very interesting scene because it’s not just an action scene, there’s so much going on. We also obviously treated it as choreography. The stunt guys, I’m sure that they spent days working on it. But I only had one day to memorize the choreo, and then we were rehearsing it on the day, and then we went into shooting it.

I have a very bad memory, but I believe that we did all the men fighting on the first day. And then the second day it was Mariko fighting and then falling to the ground. But for me, I never go into it thinking, “Oh, this is just action. This is just choreo,” because it’s always about something within the character that’s moving and therefore, making her fight. And it always helps because without the fighting, when I fall to the ground, I’m not going to be able to react the way that I’m reacting. And so both were feeding each other really nicely, and therefore I was able to showcase what I was doing. And when I fall to the ground, you can hear me containing my cry. And I didn’t know that that was going to be part of the final edit. I was really just trying to hold my cry because I didn’t want to break down and seem like a weak, young person. But yeah, I guess it really enhanced the performance also, and that’s why they were able to pick it up with the mic and use it in the final edit. It was all organic, fighting and then falling to the ground.

Was the experience playing Mariko super immersive? It’s such a layered role that I imagine there are details to her that had to be hammered into your thoughts before you even said a line or took a step.

'The Umbrella Academy' Season 4 Had a Drizzle of a Debut

In the beginning it was something that I had to be like, “Ok, I’m going to do it many times.” And I’m researching and I’m reading and everything. But after the first half of episodes are done, it’s already in you to the point that even when I’m not working, I feel that way. And I wasn’t as joyful and I was dreaming about similar things that Mariko was going through.

And so, it just lives within. The character lives within you and you live within her. And so, it wasn’t something that I had to try to do towards the end. In the beginning, it did start like that, but because Mariko is such a heavy character, it was daunting, and I was feeling very somber, very lost in the middle, and then feeling empowered towards the end, and clear-headed. It felt like a natural flow. I wasn’t enjoying it, but I see why I was reacting the way that I was because I was heavily deep within the character towards the end.

Was there anything physical that helped prepare or guide you through acting this scene out? A special prop? A costume? Anything like that.

I mean, the costume in general, just being in Carlos [Rosario]’s wardrobe, it was quite hard to get used to because you’re wrapped around, and it feels very restrictive, but that is what the women were going through. It’s a physical restrictiveness, but also mentally, it really helped me get into the character. And so every morning when I would wear his costumes, it felt right and it helped me go into the scenes, so I loved it. And it was a matter of just loosening up the sleeves a little bit so that my arms could actually go up because without loosening it, it would be restricted to this place.

Carlos also prepared these proper soles for the action sequences because the shoes that we were wearing are extremely flat and there’s no flexibility within it. And just for safety, he prepared that, thank goodness. And also the gravel, everyone was just trying to get the really big rocks out of the way, but still there are a couple, so you’re like, “I’m trying to find my balance while I fight.” And with the swords, there were rubber swords and there were wooden ones and it had some weight, so it really felt like if I didn’t swing it would take my body with it.

Everything. Even with [production designer] Helen Jarvis, she constructed the castles, and so I’m walking into a place where there are four walls and there’s a huge gate in front of me. And when the gate opens, these men come out. And so, it was this visual aspect that really made me feel like I had nowhere to go. And it’s our job as actors that, even if there’s a blue screen, you pretend that you’re doing it, but it really helps and it changes everything when you can actually feel that entrapment. And so, that played in as well. Also seeing [Lauro Chartrand-DelValle]’s stunt guys perform for the first time when Mariko’s just standing there and she’s seeing everyone fight and get killed. That was also very moving for me, and it helped me go into my fight scene. There’s so many elements.

This episode was directed by Frederick E.O. Toye. Do you remember any discussions you had with him about it, or notes he may have given?

Fred and I had already established such a good relationship going into episode nine because we had done four and five [together], so I already had so much trust in him. And he’s also so clear about what he wants to take. He’ll never exhaust the actors out, which happens because some people want different options, and they want material so that they can edit it well.

But he would come to me, not in just the scene that we’re talking about, but he’d come to me and be like, “How much more do you have left within you? Can we do maybe two, three more takes?” And he would make sure that I had that fuel inside. And so, even though it was such a tough scene, physically and mentally, I did not feel like I couldn’t go on anymore. The character felt that, but I never felt like, as an actor, I was so exhausted, doing multiple unnecessary takes. It never felt like that. He really allowed me to perform with what I had prepared, but he would also come to me and be like, “We really should hone into that part that you were doing.” And so, I felt so safe when I was going onto Fred’s set. And we still text each other being like, “Look, we need to find another time to do something together.”

But someone reminded me the other day that when we were shooting this scene that we’re talking about, Fred was actually not there because he was sick, so he was on a monitor. And I can’t remember that because even on a monitor, he was so present and made sure that I was feeling good about it, and I knew that he was capturing every moment.

When Season 2 was announced, “Shōgun” co-creator Justin Marks mentioned that he had already been brainstorming ideas for it as Season 1 was happening. Was the possibility this story could continue ever conveyed to you? Or did you approach these final scenes thinking you were saying goodbye to your character Mariko?

I don’t know anyone who didn’t think it was final. I think we were all like, “This is the last day, this is the end.” Even for characters that were surviving. For me, even more so because I have my final death. Yeah, I was definitely surprised. I think a lot of people involved in making the creative decisions were also surprised. I have no idea what they’re planning for Season 2, but Mariko’s story is done. It concluded beautifully. It’s the way that it was concluded in James Clavell’s novel. And I think that everyone is satisfied with the way that it went, so I think that Mariko is for sure done in Season 1.

I’m excited to see what they do for Season 2 because I know that everyone is working with the best team. I’m feeling a little bit of FOMO, that I won’t be there on set, but I keep telling them, “I’ll come see the horses, I’ll come see the dogs that the crew bring.” And so, yeah, I’m just really looking forward to what they’re going to do.