ICC prosecutor on steps to hold Russia accountable for atrocities in Ukraine

The International Criminal Court in The Hague investigates and, where warranted, tries individuals charged with the gravest of crimes. Its chief prosecutor is busy these days focusing on the war in Ukraine and the war between Israel and Palestinians. Earlier today Nick Schifrin spoke to Karim Khan about what’s being done to hold Russian forces responsible for atrocities committed against Ukraine.

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Geoff Bennett: The International Criminal Court at The Hague investigates and, as warranted, tries people charged with the gravest of crimes.

These days, its prosecutor is busy, focusing on the war in Ukraine and the war between Israel and Hamas.

Earlier today, Nick Schifrin spoke with the court’s lead prosecutor.

Nick Schifrin: Karim Khan is on a trip to Ukraine visiting a children’s hospital destroyed by a missile strike, speaking to victims of alleged crimes committed in detention facilities, and held an event with Ukraine’s first lady decrying Russian war crimes against Ukrainian children.

ICC prosecutor Karim Khan joins us from Kyiv.

Thanks very much. Welcome back to the “News Hour.”

I just listed what you have been doing in Ukraine. Are you seeing ongoing war crimes committed by the Russian Federation?

Karim Khan, Prosecutor, International Criminal Court: We think so, clearly, a lot to investigate, civilians that are being killed, a lot of civilian objects that are being targeted.

You mentioned in the introduction the visit to the Okhmatdyt Children’s Hospital. And on the 8th of July, a cruise missile from the Russian Federation, an X-101, hit it.

The suffering is horrendous. The heartbreak is very real. And we see so many examples of objects that are civilian, not military, being destroyed and civilians being killed. And these are areas why we’re here.

Nick Schifrin: That attack, of course, is just one of many. Since your first indictment of Vladimir Putin in March 2023, are you planning to amend your indictment to incorporate what appears to be a vast number of ongoing additional war crimes perpetrated in Ukraine, presumably with the authorization of Mr. Putin?

Karim Khan: Well, investigations are organic.

We are going to keep on going, as with the determination, to investigate the various crimes that seem to have been committed in an ongoing campaign, not only against the Ukrainian military born from the acts of aggression, but also causing so much loss to innocent civilian life.

We’re trying to build partnerships so that, wherever it is in the world, there’s more space for accountability, less space for impunity, and all the levers of justice must be used.

Nick Schifrin: Vladimir Putin recently visited Mongolia, a state party to the International Criminal Court, but Mongolia ignored the arrest warrant for Mr. Putin.

Do you believe Mongolia obstructed justice?

Karim Khan: Well, there’s a process. The judges are looking into this.

The judges have a process to inquire, and, if necessary, report any state party for noncooperation. It’s very unfortunate Mongolia didn’t execute a judicial order. But this is the first time since warrants were issued, that President Putin has put his feet on the territory of a state party to the Rome Statute.

I hope it’s the exception and not the norm.

Nick Schifrin: But experts I speak to say it was almost inevitable that Putin would visit a state party to the ICC.

Does Mongolia’s decision erode the court’s effectiveness, and does it give you pause that you made the indictment public?

Karim Khan: It doesn’t give me pause at all.

There’s this diminishing space for tyrants, for fugitives, for individuals who feel that their power give them immunity shouldn’t be so sanguine.

Nick Schifrin: You do not have jurisdiction over the crime of aggression at the ICC, but Ukraine is becoming a state party to the ICC, and once they are a member, they’re prohibited from committing aggression.

So do you believe that could trigger a problem, given Ukraine’s incursion into Russia, in the Kursk province, or do you believe that is an act of self-defense?

Karim Khan: Well, I’m not going to speak in abstract, but every state that is attacked has an international right, it’s there in the charter, to defend itself.

Countries are not expected to lie down and be assaulted, in fact, not only the right, but often there’s a responsibility to defend statehood, constitutions, territory, and people.

Nick Schifrin: I want to switch to Israel and Gaza.

In May, you requested warrants for the arrest of three Hamas leaders, including chief Yahya Sinwar, as well as for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Yoav Gallant.

This week, you called on the ICC’s judges to issue those arrest warrants — quote — “with utmost urgency.” Why?

Karim Khan: Look, Nick, this morning, I woke up. In Gaza, there was a school being used to house 15,000 people taking shelter, civilians. It’s a designated location. The secretary-general noted more than 30 civilians have been killed.

Six U.N. staff have been killed. We’re seeing baby after baby destroyed, pregnant women giving birth, stillbirth, to children. We see, of course, Israelis that are still hostages. Kfir Bibas was 10 months old when he was so cruelly taken from the kibbutzim. Those families waiting for their loved ones in Israel have a right to justice.

And Sinwar is subject to our application. And the people of Palestine, people in Gaza, who want to have food and water, who want to stop waking up in terror as bombs land and the earth shakes, and no place is safe, it seems, including schools, as the secretary-general has mentioned today.

If we don’t start supporting the architecture built in the aftermath of the horrors of the Second World War, we’re going to get the Wild West in which no political decisions will help and in which people will be emboldened to just do what they want and not care for our children.

Nick Schifrin: Mr. Prosecutor, this week, Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel, released this statement — quote — “The comparison made by the prosecutor in The Hague between the prime minister and defense minister of Israel, which is fighting numerous Hamas terrorism in accordance with the laws of war, and the war criminal Yahya Sinwar, who executed Israeli hostages in cold blood is pure antisemitism and a moral disgrace of the highest order.”

What’s your response to that?

Karim Khan: Look, this is a trope that is bandied around with abandon, even when it’s not only repugnant and completely false.

But, in my particular case, I mean, the record shows who I am. I was very honored last year to be invited to give the second Elie Wiesel memorial lecture. They wouldn’t have invited an antisemite to give such a message.

Nobody is above the law. Nobody is beneath the law. The best of Judaism, the best of Israel is — complies with the law. Instead of polemics, instead of trying to discredit individuals, people should submit to the law, make their case. If it’s frivolous, if the case is a tissue of lies, judges have shown repeatedly that they will acquit individuals or throw cases out.

Nick Schifrin: Two of the Hamas officials that you have indicted, Mohammed Deif, the head of the military wing, and Ismail Haniyeh, the head of the political wing, have both been killed.

Do you consider that justice?

Karim Khan: Hamas, of course, is a prescribed organization in many countries. I don’t shed a tear for individuals.

What I do say is that there is a utility to the application of the law. But, of course, the law is operating in a space in which there are legitimate military targets and there are military operations under way. I won’t speak beyond that because there is a conflict.

But the law has utility, and I’m very much in favor of the equal application of the law.

Nick Schifrin: A week-and-a-half ago, the U.S. and Israel said that Hamas guards holding Israeli hostages taken on October 7 executed those hostages in a tunnel underneath Gaza. Hamas also continues to use rockets to fire against civilian targets in Israel.

Are you continuing to investigate Hamas actions and do you believe those actions are war crimes?

Karim Khan: Absolutely. Every individual must comply with the law. We have jurisdiction over the territory of Palestine.

It’s abhorrent. As long as we have jurisdiction, we will try our best to make sure that the arc bends towards legality. Nobody should feel that they can do whatever they want.

Nick Schifrin: ICC prosecutor Karim Khan, thank you very much.