TikTok fights DOJ in court over law that would ban app in U.S.

The Justice Department and TikTok faced off in federal court over a law that would require the app to break ties with the Chinese-controlled parent company, ByteDance, or be banned in the U.S. Geoff Bennett discussed the developments with NPR’s Bobby Allyn.

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Geoff Bennett: The Justice Department and TikTok faced off in federal court today over a law that would require the app to break ties with its Chinese-controlled parent company, ByteDance, or be banned in the U.S.

NPR’s Bobby Allyn is covering it all and joins us now.

So, Bobby, it’s good to see you.

So what did the lawyers for TikTok’s parent company, what did they argue in court today and what was the case that the U.S. government laid out?

Bobby Allyn, Business and Technology Reporter, NPR: So TikTok’s lawyers say this is a free speech violation in two ways.

First, it would violate the free speech of 170 million Americans who use the app. That’s more than half of the U.S. population. And, secondly, the lawyers say it would violate the free speech rights of TikTok itself, right? We know TikTok is owned by a China-based parent company, ByteDance, but it has a U.S. entity in the Los Angeles area.

And the lawyers said, look, that company too, when it makes curation decisions about what people see on the algorithm, that’s a type of free expression. The Justice Department said, hey, hang on a minute here. TikTok is owned by ByteDance, and it’s not just China. It’s a country that is a foreign adversary.

This is a country who can do espionage on U.S. citizens. This is a country that might be interested in the data of Americans. And because of that danger, it needs to be shut down by January 19.

Geoff Bennett: So how do we know, Bobby, that TikTok is a national security threat?

Bobby Allyn: So TikTok’s lawyers say the threat that China poses is theoretical, that the government has never shown any bulletproof evidence that the Chinese government has interfered in the app in any way. They can’t show that China has ever used it for spying.

They can’t show that China has ever used it to influence the app. But on the flip side, the Department of Justice says they have done a lot of probing through the national security apparatus, and they have come up with a very compelling case that China does have the capability to use TikTok against Americans. But the details of it must stay classified.

The Department of Justice says the nitty-gritty examples of how this is happening is top secret, and they won’t reveal it to the public, nor will they even reveal it to TikTok’s own legal team. And that has really upset TikTok’s legal team and TikTokers who are on the app and say, hey, if this is so dangerous, show us the goods. Where is it?

Geoff Bennett: And remind us of the stakes here, because I have seen some numbers that half of all U.S. adults use TikTok in some capacity. Is that the case?

Bobby Allyn: Yes. So, about half of Americans are on TikTok, extremely popular with young people. Interestingly, though, public support for banning TikTok has been on the wane.

It used to be around 50 percent last year. Now it’s somewhere around 32 percent, which shows that the American public is kind of backing away from this idea that TikTok ought to be banned. And, look, it’s really notable that both the presidential campaigns of Donald Trump and Kamala Harris have very active accounts on TikTok.

Trump, of course, said he wanted to ban and tried to ban TikTok when he was in the White House. Now he says he’s on TikTok’s side, and Kamala Harris, as the vice president of the United States, is on the team, essentially, that is now actively trying to ban TikTok.

So there’s a real question. If this is such a national security threat, why are these two presidential campaigns using it so actively?

Geoff Bennett: What do we know about how difficult it might be for ByteDance to sell or spin off TikTok?

Bobby Allyn: It would be very difficult for TikTok to sell, because the Chinese government is not going to allow it. It would require the blessing of Chinese regulators, and they have said repeatedly that TikTok is not for sale.

So that is one hurdle. But assuming they change their mind, it would be technically incredibly difficult to spin off TikTok, for this one fact; 90 percent of TikTok’s users are outside of the U.S. So imagine that scenario, right? There would be one version of TikTok that would exist in America, and then all these other versions around the world that technically would be competing with the American version.

It would be a real disaster from a business perspective. And TikTok has said repeatedly it’s just not feasible. So, to them, this is not a divest or ban proposal. It is just a ban.

Geoff Bennett: So if TikTok loses this case, if they are ultimately unsuccessful, what does the future of this app look like in this country and for the people who’ve built careers as content creators, mainly on TikTok?

Bobby Allyn: Yes, if this ban is upheld, as soon as January 19, there’s going to be a big crackdown. The app will be kicked out of Google and Apple’s App Store. It’s no longer going to receive software updates. It’s going to die a slow death.

And eventually it’s not going to be usable at all on any devices within America. And doing business with TikTok would become a crime that is prosecutable under the law. So this is a very high-stakes, very serious legal situation that TikTok finds itself in.

Geoff Bennett: So lots of uncertainty around this case. Do we know what happens next?

Bobby Allyn: We do.

So, by December, we should be getting a decision from these three judges on this appeals court in Washington. Either side can appeal with a whole appeals court to listen. And then ultimately it can be appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, which may have the ultimate say as to whether TikTok survives in the U.S. or not.

Geoff Bennett: NPR’s Bobby Allyn.

Bobby, thanks as always.

Bobby Allyn: Thanks, Geoff.