Getting a concealed gun permit in NYC remains a challenge despite Supreme Court ruling

In 2022, the Supreme Court struck down a century-old law in New York restricting who could carry a concealed gun. The landmark ruling was seen by Second Amendment supporters as a huge victory and by gun control advocates as opening the door to violent chaos. Special correspondent Christopher Booker reports on what has and hasn’t changed since then.

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Amna Nawaz: More than two years ago, the Supreme Court struck down a century-old law in New York state restricting who could carry a concealed gun. The landmark ruling was seen by Second Amendment supporters as a huge victory and by some gun control advocates as opening the door to violent chaos on the streets of New York.

Special correspondent Christopher Booker reports on what has and notably what hasn’t changed since then.

Christopher Booker: For 25 years, John DeLoca has owned Seneca Sporting Range and Gun Store in New York City, a city with some of the strictest gun laws in the entire country.

How hard would you say it is to own a gun in New York City?

John DeLoca, Owner, Seneca Sporting Range and Gun Store: Very hard.

Christopher Booker: For almost all of DeLoca’s four-plus decades in the gun business, to carry a concealed firearm in the city, you either had to be a cop or show — quote — “proper cause,” a provision of a gun control law from 1913.

John DeLoca: Proper cause was all about money. You had to have a check cashing business. Could be a gun dealer, be a diamond dealer, a 24-hour gas station.

Christopher Booker: But, in June of 2022, all that changed. In a 6-3 decision, the Supreme Court struck down New York’s law, ruling the restriction violated the Second Amendment’s right to keep and bear arms.

Gov. Kathy Hochul (D-NY): Shocking, absolutely shocking.

Christopher Booker: The reaction from officials like New York Governor Kathy Hochul was immediate.

Gov. Kathy Hochul: Today, the Supreme Court is sending us backwards in our efforts to protect families, to prevent gun violence. This could place millions of New Yorkers in harm’s way.

Christopher Booker: But, for DeLoca, who goes by the nickname Johnny Guns, the Supreme Court’s decision in Bruen, as the case is known, has meant a huge shift in who can get a concealed carry permit in New York.

John DeLoca: It was every — floodgates opened up.

Christopher Booker: Including for New Yorkers like Michael Schiavone.

Michael Schiavone, Gun Owner: I applied for it recently due to the change in the law, and, honestly, to take advantage of my constitutional right.

Christopher Booker: But even after the Supreme Court’s decision, getting a concealed carry permit remains a complex and lengthy process.

Just eight days after Bruen, New York state passed the Concealed Carry Improvement Act, maintaining the state’s extensive background check, asking for character references to determine good moral character, while requiring applicants attend 18 hours of firearm training. DeLoca, who offers these classes, thinks it’s an important safeguard.

John DeLoca: I just feel also that there’s a correlation between stupid people and guns. Even though we put 20 people in a class only, and we have a lawyer, and we — safety, safety, safety, you can’t sink it in enough with these people. You can’t.

Christopher Booker: It sounds like you are in favor of the heavy restrictions that are in place that allow or don’t allow someone to get a permit for a gun.

John DeLoca: Definitely, without a doubt.

Christopher Booker: In response to the Bruen decision, New York state also restricted where you could carry a gun even if you have a permit. So-called sensitive locations like bars, the subway, and public spaces like here in Times Square remain gun-free.

Peter Tilem, Attorney: They said, you know what? If we’re going to be required to let people carry guns, we’re going to make it so that there’s no place they can carry them.

Christopher Booker: Peter Tilem is an attorney leading one of the many legal challenges against gun restrictions in New York.

Peter Tilem: Until this is acknowledged as a constitutional right, I mean, acknowledged in their gut, then they’re going to keep trying to interfere with people’s ability to possess guns. Is there another right that you can think of that you can’t exercise until you get permission from the government?

Christopher Booker: Tilem argues that the restrictions imposed by New York state in the wake of Bruen misses the bigger issue, curbing illegal guns.

Peter Tilem: The Concealed Carry Improvement Act, the target is licensed gun owners, people who go through the trouble, go through the 18-month period, pay the fee and are clearly law-abiding citizens.

And now we’re going to target them with felony convictions if they carried into the wrong place. So, clearly, New York is missing the point.

Eric Gonzalez, Brooklyn, New York, District Attorney: These efforts to get these guns out of homes are going to save lives. They’re going to prevent crimes.

Christopher Booker: Brooklyn district attorney Eric Gonzalez says the city has long been battling a steady flow of illegal weapons coming from states with more relaxed gun laws, as evident at a voluntary buyback that collected nearly 100 illegal guns.

Eric Gonzalez: Seventy percent of the guns recovered in Brooklyn after crime basically come from three or four Southern states.

Christopher Booker: Seventy percent?

Eric Gonzalez: Seventy percent.

And they continue to come. So these buybacks allow us also to kind of understand how guns are moving in our city.

Christopher Booker: After the Bruen ruling, Gonzalez was one of many city leaders who argued the decision would make New York City less safe, calling it — quote — “a nightmare for public safety.”

Do you still feel that way?

Eric Gonzalez: I’m still concerned. You know, the density of the city, you know, we’re not spread out. We’re vertical. You know, you don’t want people pulling out a firearm to start shooting it out because they see a crime in progress.

Christopher Booker: But the two years since Bruen has also coincided with decreases in violent crime, including a 19 percent decline in murder and a 31 percent decline in shooting incidents.

Eric Gonzalez: I really hope that the Supreme Court understands that states have to be able to regulate this in their own jurisdictions. If we continue to just say, yes, anyone can carry, we’re going to see an uptick.

Michael Schiavone: Stupid just gets stupider.

Christopher Booker: Back in Queens, concealed permit holder Michael Schiavone says, despite the drop in crime, he’s still concerned.

Michael Schiavone: There’s tons of guns on the street. We are faced with people having illegal firearms, and they are all over the place. So that puts the citizens in a very bad situation. Especially in the subway system, in those areas where someone might want to take a firearm, we now cannot do that.

Christopher Booker: In June, the Supreme Court did rule in another gun case affirming that an individual who poses a threat can be disarmed.

But attorney Peter Tilem, whose lawsuit is one of more than 450 filed since Bruen, believes the Supreme Court will have to weigh in again.

Peter Tilem: I don’t think we understand the full import of Bruen yet. It’s going to affect every aspect of daily life. And so I think that the contours of the Second Amendment are going to be written more completely in the next five to 10 years.

Christopher Booker: In the meantime, cities like New York are left to navigate the ambiguity that exists between efforts to keep their streets safe and the Second Amendment.

For the “PBS News Hour,” I’m Christopher Booker in New York City.