‘We Are Confusing Conservatism With Anger and Hate’

It’s nearly impossible to find a Republican politician who can stand against Donald Trump and still hold on to their political viability. But one — perhaps the only one — is Utah Gov. Spencer Cox.

A longtime Trump skeptic, Cox sat for an interview with the Playbook Deep Dive podcast after cruising to victory against a far-right challenger in this week’s GOP primary. In deep red Utah, that puts him clearly on track to win a second term in November.

But the 48-year-old governor is not like some other Never-Trumpers; he actually finds fault with different factions in the GOP.

Regarding Trump-aligned populists, Cox said: “We are confusing conservatism with anger and hate and polarization.”

Yet when asked about Trump critics like former GOP Reps. Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, he expressed heavy reservations: “I don’t know that they’re changing anybody’s minds.”

Cox has built a growing profile outside of Utah, mostly through his work as chair of the National Governors Association, which has pushed Cox’s signature initiative: “Disagree Better,” a public service campaign to try to depolarize politics.

Cox is going to need those skills if Trump wins. With many prominent Trump critics, such as Sen. Mitt Romney and New Hampshire Gov. Chris Sununu, leaving office, Cox is emerging as the new face of Trump skepticism on the right.

In a wide-ranging discussion, Cox talked about Utah politics, his disagreements with Trump, and why “disagreeing better” doesn’t mean giving up your most strongly held beliefs.

This conversation has been edited for length and clarity by Deep Dive producer Kara Tabor and senior producer Alex Keeney. You can listen to the full Playbook Deep Dive podcast interview here:

Outside of Utah you are probably best known for the “Disagree Better” campaign.

People may think it sounds a little strange — “Why is this governor going around the country telling people how to disagree?” — so give us the elevator pitch about what it is.

I'm currently the chair of the National Governors Association, and every chair has an initiative. And as I was thinking through some of the traditional things that we would work on — the cost of health care, the cost of housing in our country, energy policy, those types of things — I just realized that we can't solve any of the biggest issues if we all hate each other. And I'm deeply concerned about the polarization in our country and our inability, especially in Congress, to work together and solve problems.

We've been working with some polarization labs at Stanford and Dartmouth and other places, looking at the research about number one, why polarization is so dangerous but two, things that we can actively do to help reduce the polarization and work together. One of those interventions that the researchers tell us works is when you have two members of opposing parties in elevated positions appearing together in ads, talking about how we can disagree without hating each other. So we've been filming those ads. We've had over 20 governors now participate and they've been fairly successful. People seem to really enjoy that. There is an exhausted majority in our country that's hungry for something different and we're trying to offer that content.

So it’s like a Democratic governor and a Republican governor saying, “Hey, we don't want to kill each other”?

Exactly. That’s pretty much it. I did one with Governor Wes Moore of Maryland, in which he points at me and says, “He's white.” And I say, “He's black.”

You know, “He's a farm kid from Utah,” and “He’s a city kid from Maryland.” And while we disagree on lots of things, we're both fathers. We both love college basketball. We're both Americans.

When some people first hear of the initiative, they think, “Well, this is just moderate gobbledygook. Is he trying to say that everyone should meet in the center and people should give up their beliefs?” And I don’t believe that's what you're saying, because you’re a pretty conservative guy. So this is not about moderation or centrism. Is that correct?

It is absolutely not about that. It is about disagreeing passionately, being true to our principles in the way we disagree. But it's about treating people with respect.

I think it's fascinating that now we hear words like “respect” and we assume moderation; that conservatism is the same as treating people with disrespect or anger or hate. That's fairly new in our lexicon. It's never been like that before, that we're cross-associating those things.

I'm curious about the story of the toast to Biden. Did the president talk to you about that afterwards?

Well, he thanked me for doing it. The National Governors Association, historically, we have a dinner at the White House, and whoever's the chair toasts the president. And so we had Democrats that toasted President Trump. And of course, it was my turn —

Yes, that was controversial when they did that.

Yeah. It was. And there was a question about, “Should you do this or would you do this?” And I just think it's silly. It's so silly that we can't do something like that. You know, the president thanked me for doing it and said, “I'm sure this won't be good for you.” And he was right.

But those are the dumb things. Those are the things that shouldn't matter. I think we need traditions. And we need bipartisan organizations. The NGA is one of the last bastions of bipartisanship where governors really do work together. We work very closely together. And I'm grateful that I have so many great Republicans and Democrats where we can steal ideas from each other. And I'm grateful we have a place to meet where we can have these traditions, where I get to toast the president and still sue him many times. And that's okay. We can disagree on these things, but not hate each other.

If you were still leading the NGA next year, would you toast Trump if he is president?

Absolutely. I would have no problem with that at all. [Colorado Governor] Jared Polis will be the chair in a month and he'll get that opportunity if Trump is reelected. I assume that Jared will do the same thing that I did and the same thing that his predecessors did before.

We're recording this the day before the first Biden-Trump debate. With that caveat, you have said that you think Trump will win the election. Do you still think that?

All of the polling suggests that Trump is doing very well. It doesn't seem like anything's moving people. I think this is so baked. Either you support him or you don't. By now, I don't know what new revelations are going to come out. I don't know that new court cases are going to do anything to change that. President Biden is not getting any younger. I think that's a real problem. You could try to dismiss it. And certainly his supporters do, but that's not going away. We all experience it. We all have family members. We see what happens when you get over 80. I don't think that people over 80 should be running a country. I think that's a huge mistake. I can't believe we ended up with these two candidates again. But I do still think Trump has a very good chance of winning.

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If Trump is president, there is a good chance that you're going to be the designated anti-Trump governor. Have you thought about what that means in terms of your role in national politics?

While I understand the reference and I know that's kind of where people put me, I always try to point out that I'm not anti-Trump. I have serious issues with some of the things he's done. I love some of the other things he's done. I try to treat everyone with dignity and respect.

You'll note at the Gridiron, I went off script at the end and defended MAGA people even though I don't consider myself a MAGA Republican. I’m far more interested in why people are so supportive of the president. I think that's important to me. I will help the president. I want the president to succeed. I want President Trump to succeed. I'm not a Liz Cheney or an Adam Kinzinger.

That's interesting. I think that's important for people to know. You don't self-identify with that group.

Right. Because I don't think that's helpful. And far too often that group turns into the very thing that they're pushing against. And maybe that is because we feel like we have to label people and there is no nuance today.

Tell me why. What's wrong with the Liz Cheney/Adam Kinzinger/Bulwark/Tim Miller view of Trump? What’s the critique of that wing of the Republican Party?

Again, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them. They're great people.

We’re talking about their ideas. We’re disagreeing better.

Absolutely. Again, I think it's important to push back on things that we disagree with. And I want people to be true to themselves. And I've tried to do that. You know, it would have been much easier for me to just say, “I'm voting for Trump every four years,” and that's it. I've written people in since post-2012.

But I don't know that they're changing anybody's minds. I don't think they're changing hearts and minds at all. I think they've lumped everybody who supports Trump into being just like Trump instead of trying to understand them and get to know them and have some sympathy, some empathy and trying to help them and our party be better. And for me, that's the biggest issue.

I have a very optimistic view of who we are and who we can be again, and the fact that some people have lost that optimism — I want to try to understand why, and I want to solve those problems.

You're in a very conservative state with a very active MAGA contingent. What have you learned that you think the Adam Kinzingers and Liz Cheneys don't understand?

So I grew up in a small town. I went back to raise my kids in that small town. We’re 1,200 people. We've been there for 160 years on the same farm that my great-great-great grandfather settled.

How many “greats”?

Three greats. The first pioneers to come to Utah. They came across in covered wagons and Brigham Young sent them to Fairview. And on that same farm, that is where my house is. We’re still farming the exact same land.

So you trace yourself back to the early Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Yeah. Every one of my ancestral lines came across the plains between 1847 and 1866. But I only say that because these are my neighbors, my family members that are Trump supporters and they want Trump to be reelected.

I care deeply — these are my people. I live in coal country. So many of my friends’ dads and my friends themselves and some family members have worked in the coal mines. As those coal mines are shutting down, the old economy is leaving. But the new economy hasn't come yet. The promises that have been made by both political parties for years have never come to fruition. And people are feeling isolated.

The world is changing so quickly that I think that people feel unmoored. We're losing faith and friendships. If you look at church attendance, it’s down across the country. What are we replacing those close friendships with? There's a sense of loss, a sense of loneliness, a rise in depression, deaths of despair, all of those things. And so at some point, people do lash out. And then you have a candidate who's taking advantage of that. And again, I think he has done some good things and some not-good-things-at-all. But I think both parties could do better at trying to understand and deal with those issues.

I think the defining feature of the critique from Cheney and Kinzinger is probably close to Biden's critique, which is about democracy, respect for the rule of law and institutions and all of the stuff that flows from what happened on Jan. 6th. What would you say your differences are with that group of politicians and their view about what Trump represents in terms of his threat to democracy?

Again, I don't know that they're wrong. And obviously I've been very vocal about Jan. 6th and how awful that was. My critique isn't so much in what they're worried about. My critique is about how they go about convincing people that there's a better way and helping people to understand why these things matter. And that's really where I come down.

Look, Trump was president before — we made it. A lot of people said we couldn’t survive four years of Joe Biden, and here we are. Hasn't been great. But at the end of the day, we're resilient people. And we will get through the next four years.

The hope is that there is something else after that. The bench is very deep, especially in our party. We have so many amazing candidates, some of whom ran this time, some who will run next time. I just feel like those candidates won't be either Biden or Trump. And I can't wait for that day to come.

But I do have to say, I think we need an optimistic vision of the country. I think people are desperate. 70 percent of Americans, according to the polling that we've seen from More in Common and other groups, hate what's happening in politics today. They're desperate for something else. So that gives me hope that there is a market for something that is different. Neither party is addressing that market. There's a market failure happening right now. But that market failure won't continue forever. The first party to figure this out is going to win by 20 points.

You're likely to run in the next open primary for president?

For president? No. This will be my last election. We don't have term limits in Utah, but I've said very vocally, “I'm done.” I will not be running for president. I want nothing to do with Congress or Washington, D.C.

Really? You have no interest in running for president?

No. They don't let kids from Fairview, Utah do things like that.

Oh, come on. You might have said that about being governor.

Well, sure, that's true. But again, I understand the state of where our party is right now and Utah is an outlier, and I'm grateful that it is. I know I couldn't get elected. I would have to change who I am to get elected really maybe anywhere else. And I'm not interested in doing that. I have a great life outside of politics and I can't wait to get back to it.

I wonder if you could guide our listeners through the primaries in Utah this past Tuesday. What’s your breakdown of what happened? At least four or five of these races are relevant outside of the state.

It's definitely an interesting time in the Republican Party, both in Utah and outside of Utah. But it's been well-documented that Utah's a little different when it comes to our Republican Party politics. Maybe a little bit of a throwback to the Reagan-era Republican Party. Certainly there are tensions within that party here in the state of Utah between the Trump Republicans and the more historically conservative Republicans that we're used to.

We've seen that play out in the past few elections. I think it was definitely on display in this election. [Trump-backed Senate candidate] Trent Staggs didn't get above 30 percent. And so I think my race and that race and other races just showed that the Utah Republican Party is still a little bit different, still a little bit of an outlier, I think, in a very good way — in an optimistic way, and a forward thinking, problem solving, traditional conservative way. Not necessarily the populist way that we see in other places in the country.

There was so much conversation this week about the George Latimer vs. Jamaal Bowman race in New York — about the progressives versus the moderates. Do you see any evidence from Tuesday’s results that either wing of the Utah Republican Party has the upper hand?

Well certainly. And again, I always kind of push back on the “moderate versus conservative” moniker. I believe I'm the real conservative in the race.

In Utah — and this gets a little hyper local — we have a system where 4,000 delegates go to a convention and then they get to vote on these candidates as well. There is another path to the ballot, a signature path. Most of us do both the convention and the signature path, which is what I did. The real takeaway from those races is that the candidates that did well in the convention, with the more extremist delegates voting for them, did very poorly in the primary. I think that's kind of what we saw in Utah: that the more traditional conservative Utah Republican held this election.

Tell us a little bit about your convention speech . You got up there, and you basically told the crowd, I'm not going to deliver the speech that is loaded on the teleprompter . And you gave remarks off the cuff. Let me know if that's accurate. And what were you going to say versus what you ended up saying?

So that is accurate. We had a more traditional speech planned talking about everything we accomplished over the past four years. And the reception — every governor gets booed when they go to the convention — I don't know, it's like the NFL commissioner at the draft. That's kind of how it goes.

But what's changed is this kind of cancel culture that has historically been on the left, we're seeing more and more on the right, where people are shouting, not letting you give your speech. And I just felt like I couldn't ignore that, that I needed to address it. And so I did. I kind of ticked off the accomplishments that we had done, the very conservative accomplishments. I just said, “Is this what's making you so angry? What is it that's making you so angry?” And I'm guessing the line you're referring to, I said, “Maybe you hate that I just don't hate enough.”

That's the one that really got picked up.

Yeah, that got the attention. And, of course, a certain faction didn't love that, but that that was the piece. That's what I do feel is happening to some parts of our party, that we are confusing conservatism with anger and hate and polarization. And I think that's very unhealthy for our party. I think it's unhealthy for my state. I think it's unhealthy for our country.

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