Guns in Wyoming Capitol debate attracts scant public participation

Gov. Mark Gordon wanted feedback on a plan to allow guns at the Wyoming Capitol. But when the time came Monday to testify, only a few members of the public took him up on his offer.

A dozen people spoke at the Wyoming State Building Commission meeting — half attended virtually — and six of them were state lawmakers. The politicians all spoke in support of allowing those who work in and visit the building to carry firearms.

Of the non-politicians who spoke, four opposed allowing civilians to carry firearms into the Capitol, while two felt that allowing concealed carry in that building didn’t go far enough.

As of Monday, 36 people provided opinions and comments via an online form that is expected to remain open until Oct. 2. The comments were not read aloud during the meeting.

Working Capitol law enforcement can already carry firearms in the building, but legislators, lobbyists and visitors can’t. Legislators passed a bill this last session that would’ve allowed concealed carry in most buildings overseen by the state — including the Capitol — but Gordon vetoed the measure, citing constitutional concerns. Soon after, the governor directed the building commission to reconsider rules for concealed carry permit holders at the Capitol and “other appropriate state facilities.”

The State Building Commission’s proposed rules changes discussed during Monday’s meeting would allow such permit holders to carry concealed firearms in public spaces of the Capitol and extension, or the underground meeting spaces attached to the Capitol. The commission is comprised of the governor, secretary of state, state auditor, state treasurer and superintendent of public instruction.

Public arguments

Among those opposing concealed carry was Larry Wolfe, a lawyer and former senior assistant attorney general who said he’d worked in and around the Wyoming Capitol since 1980.

“I have always felt safe in this building,” he said. “I’ve never once thought that I should be fearful for my life or the life of anybody else in the public for one reason: Because this building is protected.”

But, he felt, allowing concealed carry would make the building less safe for Capitol patrons, including those who are required to go there for work.

“It is no stretch of the imagination to think that if you allow legislators, lobbyists to carry guns in this building, that you are putting people at risk,” he said. “It is no stretch of the imagination to think that members of the Legislature who get in a heated argument with a lobbyist would open their jacket and display their gun, or reach into their purse and display [their] gun.”

Speaking on behalf of themselves, Wyoming residents Erika Cole, Tate Mullen and Andrew Schneider said they also opposed concealed carry in the Capitol. The three have worked with Moms Demand Action, the Wyoming Education Association and the Wyoming Arts Alliance, respectively — the former two groups advocating against an overarching concealed carry policy for public and governmental facilities — but didn’t say they were representing those groups at the meeting.

Schneider recalled the long history of gun prohibitions in certain places in Wyoming, and Mullen noted Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia’s opinion that the Second Amendment has limits and can exclude government buildings.

Whether state leaders decide to allow guns or not, Cole suggested there should at least be metal detectors so it’s clear who has a firearm and if they have a concealed carry permit. She also suggested more training should be provided to Capitol law enforcement if firearms are allowed.

“Currently … the person with the gun in the room is the threat,” she said. “And if you’re allowing the public to carry in[to the Capitol], there could be a situation of friendly fire.”

Donald Greer was among those who supported the rule change. He felt civilians should be able to carry firearms into the Capitol and that law enforcement officers in the building aren’t enough to protect everyone.

“I don’t see why one certain group of people have the right to protection over me,” he said. “It is not the responsibility of law enforcement to go around and protect you. Your freedom and your safety is yours and yours alone.”

Gun owners as a whole are trustworthy, he added, and the Second Amendment shouldn’t be infringed based on someone’s fear of another individual carrying.

Brian Pixley agreed.

“I believe it’s a Second Amendment right to anywhere you want to,” he said.

The lawmakers

Six state lawmakers spoke in favor of allowing guns at the Capitol including Reps. John Bear (R-Gillette), Ben Hornok (R-Cheyenne), Sarah Penn (R-Lander), Tony Locke (R-Casper), Allen Slagle (R-Newcastle), and Sen. Bob Ide (R-Casper). They frequently referenced House Bill 125 – Repeal gun free zones and preemption amendments .

The Legislature passed the bill during the most recent session — though not without some hard-fought legislative maneuvering — which would’ve allowed people with concealed carry licenses to bring firearms into most facilities overseen by the state, including local government offices and schools.

Gordon vetoed the bill after the Legislature adjourned, citing his concerns that it infringed on local control and violated the separation of powers granted in the state constitution.

“Imperfect language opens potential loopholes such as putting a family services case worker at risk of being charged with a misdemeanor for simply asking someone they knew to be carrying a firearm to leave a building in order to defuse an emotionally charged family situation,” he wrote.

Gordon at the time said he would look back at the issue. Monday’s special meeting, he said, was part of making good on that promise.

While some lawmakers expressed gratitude for Gordon following through, they also felt the proposed rules could cause confusion by only allowing people with concealed carry licenses to bring firearms into the statehouse.

“I do see a potential problem where those people who are carrying via constitutional carry versus those people who are a different class because they have a permit,” Bear said. Bear leads the hard-line Wyoming Freedom Caucus, which has criticized Gordon over his gun-free zone veto .

Gordon said he hopes the building commission’s actions can pair with decisions made by the Management Council — the administrative arm of the Legislature — to create a cohesive, easy-to-understand policy of when and where firearms are allowed.

It’s no simple matter, however. Different parts of the Capitol are under control of different branches of government depending on whether the Legislature is in session.

And the changes could leave office spaces and the Herschler Building with different rules than public areas of the Capitol. State Auditor Kristi Racines said she felt there should be some level of uniformity for individual agency rules around the Capitol and extension, too, concerning whether public employees are allowed to bring guns to the office.

“I feel very uncomfortable leaving this up to agency by agency,” she said. “I don’t think employees should have different rights or lack thereof based on which floor they work on.”

State Treasurer Curt Meier said he wanted to allow firearms in his office, too, but suggested some training should be offered.

Next steps

Secretary of State Chuck Gray asked several times during the meeting what the next steps would be in allowing firearms in the Capitol.

“I’m worried we’re not going to get this done in 2024 if we just keep vacillating, dithering and delaying,” Gray said.

In response, Gordon said he anticipates the language proposed during Monday’s meeting will likely change and that there were more specifics to work out in upcoming meetings.

“Hopefully all of this can arrive at a good location for the Legislature to take it up as they will,” he said.

The Interim Joint Judiciary Committee is also set to discuss the issue on Sept. 19 . The next official State Building Commission meeting is scheduled for Oct. 9.

While this discussion focused on public areas of the Capitol and the extension, future conversations could still include other facilities overseen by the state, Gordon said.

But in the meantime, firearm rules are being handled at the local level, including at schools, he said.

“There are a number of school districts that have managed to put policies in place that allow carry in the schools, and they’ve been able to figure out ways to get the insurance necessary,” he said. “My hope is that by being very deliberate in this process, that we make it possible for people to anticipate the challenges and be able to deal correctly with whatever issues that might come from that.”

To add your opinion about this topic to the public record, go here .

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