What Boeing's potential fraud plea deal could mean for the aviation industry

The U.S. government is waiting to see if Boeing accepts its deal to plead guilty to criminal fraud in connection with two 737 Max crashes in 2018 and 2019 that killed 346 people. Amna Nawaz spoke with Zipporah Kuria, whose father was killed in the 2019 crash, and discussed what the deal could mean for the aviation industry with Miles O’Brien.

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Amna Nawaz: This is a key weekend for Boeing, the Justice Department, and hundreds of families.

The U.S. government is waiting to see if major airplane manufacturer Boeing accepts its deal to plead guilty to criminal fraud in connection with two deadly crashes in 2018 and 2019, both 737 MAX jetliners, that killed 346 people.

Lawyers for the victims say Boeing would also have to pay more than $240 million in penalties and agree to an external monitor. It stops far short of imposing more serious criminal charges and larger penalties that some have asked for. Boeing is supposed to decide this weekend on whether to accept the deal or go to trial.

Before we unpack the details of that deal, we’re joined first by Zipporah Kuria, whose father was killed in that 2019 Boeing crash.

Zipporah, welcome, and thank you for being with us.

We don’t yet know what Boeing is going to do, but what is your view? Do you want to see Boeing accept that plea deal?

Zipporah Kuria, Daughter of Crash Victim: At this point, there’s a question as to whether what we want to see matters as the families.

I think we would want the plea deal not to have been offered to them in the first place, but we would love for them not to accept the plea deal, so we could go to trial, and then, hopefully, there would be a journey or, like, some hope of justice.

But I do not expect them not to plead guilty, because I don’t think any deal can get any sweeter than this sweetheart deal that they have come to an agreement of or the extension of the pre-agreed sweetheart deal that they have had with the DOJ.

Amna Nawaz: Tell me why you think it was a mistake for the Department of Justice to offer this deal in the first place.

Zipporah Kuria: When a corporation is charged with the death and what we see as the murder of 346 people, and they’re charged with fraud to begin with, and you’re given a second chance because they have breached the agreement that they said that they would adhere to, you would think that they would come down on them a lot harder and would actually look to hold them to account, not just for failing to comply with the agreement, but also for the death of 346 people.

It’s ridiculous that we’re even having this conversation.

Amna Nawaz: I should say you’re referring in that previous deal to a 2021 agreement that was reached between the Department of Justice and Boeing in which they paid a fine and had some terms they were meant to follow for three years or so.But this is a new deal now with what some lawyers argue is a more serious criminal charge they’d be pleading guilty to.

And, look, some of the lawyers for many of the families say this is better than nothing. Do you accept that argument?

Zipporah Kuria: I think nothing on top of nothing is still nothing.

The death of 346 people still goes unrecognized by both of these deals. The families still are not being recognized as victim. And, also, the fact that they still have the opportunity to select their independent monitors, which allows them to self-regulate, which is what got us here to begin with, for me to say that that’s better than nothing, nothing on top of nothing is still nothing.

Amna Nawaz: I know that you and so many others have been fighting for the last five years.

And I wonder if you think that, if they accept this deal, is there a next step for you? Do you have any more options moving forward?

Zipporah Kuria: At the moment in times, it doesn’t feel as though we have any other options moving forward.

But what I do know about the ET302 families and some of the Lion Air crash victim families is that we won’t relent. The first deal completely disregarded us. So I don’t know how, but what I know is, where there’s a will, there’s a way. And one thing that we have is tons of will to make sure that this doesn’t just become something else that’s stuck under a rug or it doesn’t happen to other families.

We know that, if there’s an avenue to appeal, we would appeal to
Judge O’Connor. We will appeal, do whatever we need to, if we have to go to the Supreme Court, if that’s an option.

Amna Nawaz: Zipporah, we know that there are 346 stories behind each of those lives lost. Can you just tell us a little bit about what you want us to know about your father and what the last few years have been like without him?

Zipporah Kuria: When you say 346 people, it wasn’t just 346 people’s lives that were messed up by this. It was every other life that was attached to that.

And for me and my family, it’s like time has stood still. You know, I have watched my friends get married. I have watched them buy houses, build their careers, but I have been losing sleep over what — when’s the next crash going to happen, and watching Boeing go scot-free for the death of my dad, who was just such an incredible man.

And it’s like the purest souls were on this plane. Everyone who was on there, their family members talk about their mission to go serve young people in Kenya, to go provide medicines, people that were going to — young people that are going to intern for the U.N.

There were young — there were people that were doing amazing things. There were selfless humanitarians on their way to go and serve the world. And the selfishness of a company like Boeing has robbed them and thousands of lives that were connected to them of what they would have brought to this world.

It’s even difficult trying to think straight and speak straight sometimes, because it’s like the world stopped moving. One of the most heartbreaking things is looking at the family members that have lost their children and knowing that they will never get to see them learn how to walk. They will never get to see them go to school. They will never walk them down the aisle or celebrate these milestones.

The thought of other people being in our position is enough to keep us going. And, ultimately, as well, the people that we lost, like I said, they were all remarkable souls. Like, my dad would have gone to the end of the earth for me. And that gives me the fire to continue to go to the end of the earth, not just for him, but for the next person sitting here.

Amna Nawaz: Zipporah Kuria, thank you so much for being with us, for sharing your father’s story. We really appreciate your time.

Zipporah Kuria: Thank you.

Amna Nawaz: For the record, we have a standing request into Boeing for an interview with its CEO, David Calhoun.

Let’s get some more context now on this proposed deal and what it could mean for Boeing and the larger industry.

Our aviation correspondent, Miles O’Brien, joins us again now.

Miles, you heard there, the frustration for these families is so real as they seek justice. Just back us up for a moment and tell us, how did this plea deal end up being offered by the Department of Justice to Boeing in the first place?

Miles O’Brien: Yes, Amna.

It’s heartbreaking listening to that, of course. And we all — our hearts go out to those families as they try to find some kind of justice in the midst of this horrible tragedy.

But the fact is that, if you look at history, the chances of criminal charges against individuals at Boeing prevailing in court are not great. If you look at the one and only company in U.S. history charged with criminal charges in the wake of an accident, SabreTech, which provided oxygen canisters on a ValuJet flight in 1996, the company faced 110 manslaughter and 110 third-degree murder charges in Florida.

But the charges were dropped. A fine of $500,000 was paid — or, actually, it became a donation. And the company pled no contest, then went out of business.

In this case, the Department of Justice would say that this is a better way to ensure Boeing maintains compliance and tries to up its game on safety. There will be a monitor. There will be a mandatory board of directors meeting with the families. They will have to make investments in safety.

So, hopefully, that will create real-world changes.

Amna Nawaz: And, Miles, do we know, is Boeing likely to accept this plea deal? And, if so, what happens then?

Miles O’Brien: Well, it’s a take-it-or-leave-it deal.

A federal judge in Texas — assuming Boeing goes along, which it seems likely they will, a federal judge in Texas will have to approve it or tweak it or modify it. The company faced the uncertainty of a trial, reputational problems, of course, further reputational problems, and the fact that this plea deal indicates no charges will be levied at individuals.

The biggest customer for Boeing is the federal government, and this allows a waiver to allow them to continue to do business with the federal government, even though they’re guilty of this crime.

Amna Nawaz: We have about 40 seconds left, but I have to ask, because, as you have reported, we don’t often see that aviation accident investigations are criminalized in the U.S.

This seems to be different. Why?

Miles O’Brien: Well, the aviation industry is built around the idea of trying to make things safer, the NTSB, the FAA.

Think about aviation safety, not necessarily creating an environment of criminality. They’re afraid that it would hinder the ability to make aviation safer. And in the case of aviation, sometimes, real-time decisions need to be made quickly to fix some fundamental problem with an aircraft.

Ironically and tragically, the fact that there wasn’t candor on the part of Boeing may have ultimately led to that second crash. It’s too bad that we have to be in this position.

Amna Nawaz: Our aviation correspondent, Miles O’Brien.

Miles, thank you so much. Good to talk to you.

Miles O’Brien: You’re welcome, Amna.